Real Estate Investing for Cash Flow Podcast

Transcript

Kevin Bupp:

Hey guys, Kevin Bupp here and I want to welcome you to another episode of the Real Estate Investing for Cash Flow Podcast. Our mission is to help you build and maintain massive amounts of cash flow through income producing real estate investments. Now, our guest for this week’s show is Real estate investment expert Patrick Grimes. Now, Patrick is the founder and CEO of Passive Investing Mastery, private equity firm specializing in non-correlated passive alternative investments in real estate, private debt, litigating, finance and energy. Now, starting with single-family rentals, Patrick has been investing in alternative investments since 2007. He founded the private equity firm Invest on Main Street and has scaled his holdings to a portfolio of over 5,000 apartment units valued at over $600 million across the southeastern United States. Now, he then created Passive Investing Mastery, the mission to educate investors in the art of alternative investing strategies and to sponsor best in class investments. So guys, without further ado, I’d like to welcome Patrick Grimes to the show. My friend, how you doing today?

Patrick:

I’m well and excited to be here. I had you on my Mastery series about a year ago probably, and it’s great to be hanging out with you. Also rub shoulders with your partners a lot, so you guys are good friends out there in the alternative space.

Kevin Bupp:

Absolutely. Well, no, I know you’ve done a lot of great things over the years that you guys have been out there, just educating folks. You’ve simultaneously build a very large private equity firm as well. And you guys got your fingers in a number of different pots. So excited just to really get a better understanding, Patrick, of who you are, what it is you do, where you guys are spending your time, energy, and focus today. But I guess let’s back it up a little bit for those that aren’t familiar with your name, don’t know who you are and a little bit of your background. So let’s start there. Again, I give you the brief introduction, but I didn’t really go deep. Maybe expand upon where you got your start and ultimately how you found your way into the world of alternative investments.

Patrick:

Sure. Well, like many of your listeners, I was a hardworking professional out there battling my way in corporate America. I did a machine design automation and robotics. I was a mechanical engineer and I had a master’s in engineering and an MBA. Got some advice early on that when I asked the founder of the first machine design firm I worked for, how do I invest, what should I do? I was thinking he was going to say, “Hey, this medical device or aerospace startup.” Which we are not far from Silicon Valley, so there was a lot to choose from. He said real estate. I was like, what? He goes, “Yeah, I make all my money in high-tech and I dump it in real estate.” And he said, that’s what will really get these alternatives outside of the stock market and high-tech. Those are really what will get you to the financial security that you want for your family in the long run. And his only regret was not buying more sooner. So that’s-

Kevin Bupp:

Isn’t that always it? I feel like that’s always the biggest regret. Anyway, sorry to interrupt you, but keep going please.

Patrick:

Well, yeah, and it goes both ways because that happened to me in 2006 and by ’08, ’09 I was knee-deep, [inaudible 00:03:02]deep, neck deep and then completely underneath a pre-development project. And so I lost everything in 2009 and ’10 during the subprime mortgage collapse. So I went real big real soon. I didn’t know what recession resilience was. I didn’t know what buying cash flow and producing assets was. I looked at really great, shiny colored returns. In two to three years, double, triple my money and get rich and retire quick. That didn’t work out for me.

Kevin Bupp:

It’s very interesting. So your first experience was kind of a boom and a bust or maybe the boom necessarily never even got to a boom, just more of a build up to a bust. And so interesting that just really you had a taste of success from your corporate gig. You were doing well, but doesn’t sound like you ever really got the real taste of what real estate can do as far as building wealth before 2008 crushed you. Is that an accurate statement?

Patrick:

Yeah, absolutely accurate. I was battered, beaten, broke. His ego was hit after that. And so I hunkered back into my career and I was just like, look, I’m still a talented engineer. So I got a master’s in engineering and MBA and started doing well again financially. And next thing I knew I was back on where to invest path and that’s when I followed the breadcrumbs of the wealthy, and that led me back to alternatives outside of the stock market. But kind of different approach, wealth preservation, tortoise not the hare, buying of cashflow, lower leverage, existing assets. And I started studying a lot about allocation strategies and recession resilient markets, and learning how to allocate in ways in which I won’t lose my whole shirt again, maybe I’ll lose a button but not my whole shirt again. And so that’s what led me down this path.

Kevin Bupp:

So version two, what did that look like? What were the types of real estate that you were looking at at that point in time? Obviously existing cash flowing investments, but was that when you kind of opened your eyes up to multifamily?

Patrick:

No, I hadn’t learned a partner yet. I was still a do it myself or do it with my own money and which is a natural progression. And so I did this single family approach, which if you look on Patrick Grimes, Forbes, you’re going to read about 20 articles or at least a dozen that somehow point around how single family won’t get you there. Partnering up in a larger assets apartments and other energy, legal, medical, other investments and other markets will. But yeah, so I found Houston to actually be the most stable market that I could find that had the best opportunity for cash flow, landlord friendly, tax advantaged and had the stability through the collapse. So primaries collapse, which just barely tapered off before it went back up again. And so I started buying from high-tech job in California I started buying rental properties in Houston and it was working. I was basically doing the BRRRR method, but I didn’t know what it was at the time. I was buying and I was renovating and then I was refining and then I was renting and then I was repeating.

Patrick:

But the problem is that probably many of your listeners, you’re really good at something, you’ve made money doing something that you’re really good at, whether you’re a doctor, an attorney, whatever it is. I was an engineer and I started trying to get really good at something else and I was doing all the jobs in this something else. So it was really taxing, it was really laborious because I didn’t want to do everything related to owning and managing properties and finding and acquiring and selling. I just needed to do it because I felt like that’s what I had to do. And then it just took over. It got to the point where my night job which was this real estate portfolio, which is more than I can handle and marry my wife. And so my wife was there for my very last single family closing, my soon to-be wife.

Patrick:

And I said, “Look, I’m going to take a break for two and a half years. We’re going to come back to it differently, but this is the last one I’m doing and I stuck to it.” We got married California and Beijing, she’s from China. And then that’s when I came back and I learned I got to do this differently. I got to partner, I got to scale, learned how to create a private equity firm, learned how to use other people’s money, learned how to partner with operators in different states and different markets and different assets. And that’s where I find myself today.

Kevin Bupp:

Yeah, I do think that there’s a lot of value. I know that maybe it’s not the most efficient way doing everything yourself with all your own capital, literally from buying it to funding it, to managing it, to renovation, all that. I know that that is not the most efficient way. However, I do think there’s a lot of lessons there that get carried over. I do think it’s important for individuals to risk their own capital and put themselves into a corner that they have to fight their way out of with their own capital first before taking on investor capital. I’m not saying that’s the only way. I’m not saying that it’s the only right way either, but I do think that there’s some lessons and values that come out of that that make you just a better investor and also a better fiduciary of others’ capital. Again, just my opinion, but I do feel like a lot of what I do… Again, same thing, I did a lot of things into early stages by myself into the point where I was literally at my bandwidth where I was like, this sucks. This is not fun.

Kevin Bupp:

I’m making money, but this is not fun. Whole idea here is to own a business, but ultimately have it to where a business can buy you some time, freedoms. And not necessarily be working 80, 90, 100 hours a week. And obviously you get pushed into the corner, you figure it out, you figure a better way, a better mousetrap. There’s always a better way, but it forces you into critical thinking exercises and it puts a level of stress on you and it makes you, it’s like fight or flight mode. And I think again, I just think that’s important because ultimately even if you’re taking investor capital, you get to that next stage you’re raising capital, there inevitably will be a challenge. There’s going to be challenges, bumps in a row. We just went through a difficult period of time for the last couple of years with the interest rate increases and devaluing of assets, and a whole bunch of other crap that’s all kind of culminated over the last couple of years. And you got to figure it out. You got to work your way through it.

Kevin Bupp:

Like this is not ideal. There’s lots of challenges out there that we got to work through now. And now guess what? You’re responsible for capital for many, many other folks. And you got to be able to answer to those individuals and have a clear thought process and a clear path of here’s what we’re going to do. Here’s inevitably how we’re going to fight our way out of this. It might not be the best answer as far as to investors, but at least have a plan of attack. And again, I think that some scars that you get earlier on from battling through it yourself ultimately carry over and just make you a better fighter when you’re out there raising capital from others. So anyway, just again, I don’t know if that’s right or wrong but it’s kind of how I feel. I do think it’s important. So I always suggest to folks that even if it’s a little, whatever cap we have, it doesn’t have to be hundreds to thousands millions of dollars.

Kevin Bupp:

But just risking something yourself before risking someone else’s something, and putting some of your own skin in the game on the line and seeing how that feels before you go take on the heavy burden of bringing capital from outside sources. So anyway, I didn’t mean to derail there, but just figured I would interject and give my two cents. So let’s talk about, I guess I would love to get a general understanding where you guys are at, where you’re spending your time today. Invest on Main Street is your primary private equity vehicle, correct? That’s kind of what the umbrella that you guys run under?

Patrick:

No, it’s Passive Investing Mastery.

Kevin Bupp:

It is. Okay, I thought that was just the educational side of things. Okay, so Passive Investing Mastery is the private equity firm.

Patrick:

Yeah, we scaled some apartment buildings and invest on mainstream but-

Kevin Bupp:

I Understand

Patrick:

We actually got some pushback to when we started doing things like… Well, I actually believe a correct portfolio allocation is not all in real estate. I think that if you look at the pie charts of the Tiger 21, the larger wealthy, or you look at Edward Wolf that plots allocations of the middle class, upper class and ultra wealthy, you start seeing that 20, 40, 50% of their wealth are in alternatives, whereas 25% might be in real estate. So where’s that other 25? Where does that go? In real estate it rides waves. I lived through one, so where else can you allocate? And so we started doing things like oil and gas, which helps to give tax advantages and also gives a completely different curve than stock market and real estate. The ebbs and flows are different, so it helps to balance out your portfolio. We’re doing debt instruments right now where we’re seeing debt being really, really strong with high interest rates and strong demand while real estate is down.

Patrick:

And so we’re seeing in our debt funds very strong returns. And then also legal, we’re actually promoting things like education, healthcare and the legal industry. Why? Because those industries investments and those just ride a steady tried and true need needed regardless of downturns. So again, be counter cyclical or anti-cyclical, these things just simply aren’t affected. They don’t care. And so that’s why we have legal funding or litigation finance because the legal industry is a steady tried and true, it doesn’t look in the past. It doesn’t care if COVID happened, doesn’t care the real estate crash, the stock marketing crash. The attorneys just simply get paid and the judicial system of the United States government just trudges along. And so by accessing loans into real estate and giving operators funds to buy properties, you can access the legal industry by giving attorneys funds to be able to pursue cases that they couldn’t otherwise do other than through contingency fee. And so we provide and we can participate in settlements so it enables access to justice for those that otherwise couldn’t afford it.

Patrick:

So investments like that provide stability, more of those such than independence. I had financial independence in the real estate space, but then real estate can collapse. But true security happens when you have foundations across multiple markets such that you’re not destabilized by any single one. And that’s what Passive Investing Mastery is about. So you had to create something that wasn’t real estate focused.

Kevin Bupp:

Understood,

Patrick:

And create a new platform that would be able to, I could be like, no, this is actually what I believe allocations are like. And it’s more general alternative investing platform.

Kevin Bupp:

Yeah, no, I appreciate that clarity. Thank you for that. Very curious, the litigation finance side of the business. Help me better… Paint the general picture as to what that looks like and who’s it for, who’s utilizing it and just general terms. I’m curious, I don’t know too much about the legal industry, definitely don’t know anything about the finance side legal industry, but very curious.

Patrick:

Well, so if you think about industries that you want to invest in, ones that are both recession resilient that tend to be pretty steady, you got to figure out how to access those industries. And so with the legal industry, it’s pretty simple industry. It’s pretty big industry. It’s billions of dollars, but it’s pretty simple. There’s hourly rates, court fees, filing fees, expert witness fees. It is not that complex. The bill of material of a case it’s not unfathomably complex like the bill of material or costs of goods for a plane. It’s pretty simple. So you got to figure out how to access it and then you go to the industry and say, “Hey look, what do these attorneys need?” There is an entire industry of attorneys out there that are providing access to justice, representing those who can’t afford it.

Patrick:

They call that engaging either in pro bono or contingency fee. Pro bono means it’s free. Contingency fee means, hey look, the attorney’s going to go ahead, they’re going to put up the cost, they’re going to eat the hourly rate, they’re going to pay the court fees, filing fees, whatever, all the fees required to provide the representation. But they’ll sign an agreement saying, “Hey look, I will participate with you in the settlement proceeds.” So in our case, the attorneys that we’re lending to, and it’s very similar in our case to lending in our debt fund where we have a diversified portfolio of loans, real estate operators that are buying or improving properties to house tenants. We’re providing loans to attorneys that have a track record and skin in the game, that either they need the operating expenses to get their current cases, their current clients across the finish line, or they want to acquire more clients called claimants and they want to increase their book of business or their docket.

Patrick:

And so it’s very similar. And then we’ll participate in the proceeds on exit. So we are working primarily with big, big Goliath evil, what we call them defendants or corporations or organizations out there. That it takes an attorney, hundreds or thousands of people, and we don’t do what’s called class action. It’s a little different than what we do. We’re doing [inaudible 00:17:00] called mass tort, which just literally means Matt Long or injustice. And those are thousands of individual lawsuits such as Camp Lejeune. One of the cornerstones of our diversified litigation portfolio is that military base where our civilians and military and their families as well as vendors, all were exposed to contaminated water for a 17-year period and now they’re dying of horrific diseases. The DOJ has taken responsibility for that. They published a grid saying based on how long you were there and the disease you have, how much you’re entitled to.

Patrick:

And so we have thousands right now of military civilians and others that were exposed to contaminated water at Camp Lejeune that we’re assisting in representation so they can get settlements. Not like a class action like $50 75, 80, but we’re talking 100, 300, $400,000 that make a meaningful difference for these claimants.

Kevin Bupp:

Got it. No, I appreciate that. And typically, how are these loans secured with these various law firms? What do you guys look for as far as security?

Patrick:

So similar to a real estate deal where you have, somebody might come and say, “Look, I’ve got a property and I’ve got an appraiser that appraised it. It’s got this certain value and can you land on a certain percentage of that value? And then you put a lien on that property as a lender, just like we do in our debt fund. Similar to any asset backed lending, it’s like the mass tort industry is literally the size of the airline industry. It’s in hundreds of billions of dollars. So we have law firm valuation specialists that go in there and they’ll review essentially the assets of a law firm. They’ll go through and say, “Oh, these are all the cases, these are all the claimants, these are all the harmed individuals.” They’ll go through and they’ll look at the proof of exposure, they’ll look at the medical records and they’ll indicate, “Okay, yeah, these guys actually have a claim.”

Patrick:

And based on, like in the case of Camp Lejeune this early settlement grid, or in other ones like we’re going after Monsanto and Roundup or these other ones like Firefighter PFAS the forever chemicals, or we’re doing a bunch of human trafficking and sexual assault stuff, you can see where they’ve settled or they’re already settling in cases. So you can say, okay, this is what the settlement value is, here’s what the cases you have, so here’s the value of your current book of business in terms of the settlement amount. And then instead of in real estate where people will lend like 60, 70, 80 cents on the dollar, we’ll lend 10, 20, 30 cents on the dollar. And then we’ll get preferred payback terms before the attorney gets anything, the claimant gets theirs and before the attorney borrower gets anything, we’ll get preferred payback terms. And then we’ll do a UCC-I security against the attorney and their assets. UCC-I filing or lien, it works fundamentally the same as any kind of asset backed lending type of environment with all the same kind of mechanisms that provide you the security.

Kevin Bupp:

Very interesting. And then what does that look like on the investment opportunity? For folks that might be tuning in wanting to get involved, what do those terms typically look like?

Patrick:

Well, there’s lots of different, just like in real estate or oil and gas or angel investing you can get involved in really early on speculative risky stuff. You can make it rich strike in oil and a gold mine or oil and gas wildcatting, or invest in 100 angel investments and lose 99 and make one or whatever it is. There’s the same thing in legal. You can get into very speculative cases that are kind of on the verge of barely… There’s no case law. So we’re in this other side where these cases have been around a long time. They’ve already been aggregated together by attorneys, they’ve already been filed. These are mass tort or they’re in the later stages of settling. And it’s a case that 90% of civil lawsuits settle. It’s really a game of settling at that point anyways.

Patrick:

And so the question really is how much are the settlements going to be and when? And that’s really when we target some of that really late staged close to the end where the attorney’s either like, “Hey, look, I need some help getting these current guys over the finish line. Or I’m so close to the end, I can only add people for a short period more. Can you give me 500 million to help me market and add a bunch more people to make me scarier so that the defendant will settle sooner?” So we’ll help him in both of those ways. So that late-staged isn’t like 2030X, it’s more like 2030 IRR and that’s what we’re projecting and are diversifying litigation portfolio. And the win-loss, like I said, most of them settle. But with thousands of individual lawsuits across many, we have a dozen different types of cases in there now, we get a really interesting portfolio of cases that will settle throughout a two, three, four-year period.

Patrick:

And so it’s kind of a very interesting return profile where you expect most of the return to be middle-loaded and then some of the trickled out at the end. It’s kind of like saying you’re going to build a housing development and then as you finish the units you’re going to sell them off. Some of the later ones might trickle towards the end, but most of them should be finished in the middle. So it’s a very strange kind of bell curve of return profile.

Kevin Bupp:

Is this a fund structure or is it one-off individual deals that you guys are allocating capital for?

Patrick:

So part of our strategy-

Kevin Bupp:

In the litigation finance side.

Patrick:

Yeah. So our strategy is it’s a diversified litigation portfolio. It’s not an open fund where it stays open forever. We raise for a while, we originate assets. And then once we get to a critical amount of diversification which we’re getting close to in the fund we’re in now, we’re going to stop raising. We’ll open up another one. And that way we allow our ability to sign up a bunch of cases and then see those through and then open up another one, sign up a bunch more cases.

Kevin Bupp:

Okay. Your current fund you said as an example, is it actively paying distributions or how does that work?

Patrick:

So unlike in real estate where the underlying asset is a rental property where there’s steady eddy cashflow coming out, litigation funding and our methodology is funding attorneys so we can pay their hourly rates in court fees to get it across the finishing. So there is no inherent cash flow. So this isn’t inherently a cash flowing asset. Now because we have thousands of different individual lawsuits across lots of cases-

Kevin Bupp:

They settle at different times, I’m assuming, correct? That’s where it comes from.

Patrick:

So we actually showed kind of a distribution profile, what we’re anticipating the settlements would come in at. But we took it off because people were like, “Oh, so we’ve cash flows on this.” And I’m like, “No, it’s not a cash flow. Those are distributions.”

Kevin Bupp:

It could be a little lumpy.

Patrick:

It’s beneficial because you’re not waiting for one refile or one sale event. You’ve got essentially thousands of lawsuits, but it’s hard for investors to kind of grapple with that concept.

Kevin Bupp:

Yeah, very interesting. It’s the first I’ve ever heard of it. I’m sure there’s probably even more questions. There’s probably questions that I have that I don’t know I have and I’m sure folks that are tuning in, this is the first time we’ve ever talked about this in the show. So just what else… I guess I’ll throw it back to you, Patrick, what additional question should we be asking about this investment strategy, again as it relates to litigation finance? What are some of the other important items that folks should understand as it relates to this investment vehicle?

Patrick:

In the real estate space, people tend to live in a little bit of a bubble like this is all we got in real estate. But actually there’s other alternative investing strategies, whether it be a medical device, receivables or litigation finance or crypto or gold mining or technology, those are actually fairly well known by those who study alternatives because they’re coveted essentially in that they don’t rise and fall together with a greater portfolio. So it [inaudible 00:25:33] the aggregate portfolio and provides much more stability into. So that’s why my partner who’s been doing litigation funding for decades, he did it for large institutions and hedge funds. And I started trying to do business with him three, five years ago, but he was like 20 million, 50 million buy-in. So I wasn’t quite there yet, Kevin. So it took a number of years for us to set one up and give access to accredited investors.

Patrick:

But it has been around for a very long time. The first litigation funding that was in America was actually against American Tobacco. And it was when a bunch of people got together and said, “Hey, look, these cigarettes which they keep saying are healthy, I don’t think they are because we’re just dying of horrific diseases.” But these were the disadvantaged people. And so there was the first instance of a third party coming in American funding, large aggregated cases together was that American tobacco and they won. And actually that company is one of the ones that… Of course, the actual attorneys are dead, but that same company is one of the ones that is some of the leadership and some of these mass torts that we’re allocating in today.

Patrick:

But there’s lots of these cases out there. And the ones that are really interesting is right now we’ve got allocations into sexual survivor, sexual assault, and you can look it up online. The LA Juvenile Detention Center is almost facing a shutdown because there’s been so many cases within the system and they failed to correct, it’s ongoing for years that they’re just threatening to completely shut down the LA Juvenile Center. So we have allocated and are representing individuals who have been harmed, assaulted through the LA Juvenile Detention Center, and we’re seeking meaningful settlements. And they’ve actually just indicated a desire to settle. And so there’s for example that. There’s human trafficking. There’s cases, like some of the ones that are kind of heartbreaking or like the NEC infant baby formula one where it’s just there is baby formula with heavy metals and these things that are harmful.

Patrick:

So we’ve got some cases wrapped in there. There’s ride-sharing claims where these people sometimes they knew this was going on, but instead of alerting authorities they made an intent to cover it up. And they didn’t correct the business practices to create a safe environment for their employees or whomever they’re looking after. So there’s a lot of cases like that which it’s really cool what we’re doing. I think it’s really neat. In general, I just ask people to kind of look back and take a stab at, hey, here’s a pie chart. Where are my investments? So how much do I have in the stock market bonds? How much do I have real estate? And trying to say, well, how confident do I feel about each of these pieces right now? And what if there was a time where real estate crashed or a time where real estate and the stock market crashed, how do I feel? Do I have oil and gas? Can I stomach what oil and gas prices sometimes do? Am I comfortable with that?

Patrick:

Do I feel like I should maybe seek an allocation that is a completely different fundamental curve that doesn’t ride the same so that I can put some money away and know that if all the worst happens, I still got something else somewhere that’s going to chug along and come back to me as a judicial system here in America, which we’re famous for globally, as that plays out, the rule of law plays out. And so that’s usually what I tell people to just take a minute, step back.

Kevin Bupp:

Yeah. And I know, Patrick, you speak to this quite often, you’ve got a lot of different free resources on your website. I know you’ve got numerous videos out there floating around, different classes, things of that nature. So I guess for those that want to dive a little deeper into alternative investments, get a better understanding of this diversity of allocation and just things that we’re talking about here today, just maybe go into a little bit of some of the different resources that you have available where they can find them. I believe your websites chock-full of it, but just if you could share a little bit more of what folks could find when they go there.

Patrick:

I’m proud to say you’re one of them on there, Kevin, because you’re one of the alternatives out there that’s very notable and strong and that I’d like to expose investors to. And if you want to meet more Kevins out there in the world, more Sunrise Capitals that are in completely different alternative investments, we have a bi-weekly webinar that’s turning almost into every week almost, where we bring in completely different alts. We have one on today, actually later, we have one on airline investing where you can buy a plane for cash flow or you can invest in educating pilots. There’s 65,000 pilot shortage right now and be part of that. And it’s really interesting. We have urban barrel casks, we’ve had crypto, technology metals, how to balance precious metals in your portfolio. We’ve had parking lots, ATM machines, just everything you can think of, laundry mats, all these different alternatives, legal funding, medical receivables, all these different alternatives that I used to just like Kevin and I, and probably maybe a handful of others, I just trade the baseball cards at these alternative investments into this little micro-huddle group.

Patrick:

And I’ve just decided that man, when I was an engineer, I wish I knew more than just real estate. I wish I knew more than just oil and gas. I wish I knew more of these typical non sort of novel, non-traditional, lesser known alts that can provide, I think true sustainable wealth growing. And this is that platform I wish I had where you can join and constantly get exposed to these new alternatives and get more comfortable and start building an allocation strategy, so passiveinvestingmastery.com. And we also, I’ve written a bunch in Forbes. We have on that website when you opt in, we have have a wealth accelerator series that drips out an email every Saturday morning in perpetuity on different wealth building concepts that I learned. And I tell my whole story. I have three different bestselling books. We actually give away one for free on the website, and I’m happy to offer that to your listeners now if you’d like me to, Kevin.

Kevin Bupp:

Yeah, that’d be great. Please do.

Patrick:

So we have, there’s a couple of them up there. One of them is Persistence, Pivots and Game Changers, Turning Challenges and Opportunities. And I’m here and there’s Phil Collen, [inaudible 00:32:00] , the Def Leppard, there’s NBA, NNFL players. It’s really a fun book, Amazon number one bestseller. We also have Thought Leadership, but if you go to passiveinvestingmastery.com/book, that’s the secret link. Make sure you put either Kevin Bupp or Sunrise Capital in the promo code or something because we get a lot of randoms filling it out. I don’t do anything with those. But if you indicate how you heard about us, I sign it and we ship it to you. We also let you read the ebook right there, so you don’t have to get the physical copy if you don’t want, but I see Kevin’s got a bunch there in the background. I’m old school, but it’s my way of giving back.

Patrick:

I tell my whole story, the fight from high-tech and then losing it all and then coming back and then single to larger multi and then other alts. And so I have a bunch of books. They’ll see about 100 different bunch of webinars and podcasts up there as well. So lots of cool stuff.

Kevin Bupp:

Awesome. Well, good deal. Well, Patrick, appreciate that. And guys, again, just be sure to drop my name there you’ll get a signed a copy. I love physical books. It’s funny, I’m one of those guys that’ve got basically the audio version of every physical book I have. I’ve got three different bookshelves, but I like both. But I love having the physical copy, so I’m still docking that way. I like to look at it, you feel it.

Patrick:

[inaudible 00:33:19].

Kevin Bupp:

Yeah, no, I will. But no, Patrick, always a good catch up with my friend, your wealth of Knowledge. Appreciate you coming on the show here. And again guys, we’ll put all those details in the show notes and with that. But no, I appreciate it. That was a fun conversation. Again, I love talking about things I know nothing about. I was very curious when I just dove back into a little bit of what you guys are doing over there at Passive Investing Mastery. I saw that litigation financing and again, was really curious there. And I didn’t Google, I didn’t dive deep at all. I didn’t try to learn as much as I could about it before I hopped on here. I wanted to get it directly from the source. So with that, I appreciate it. And again, for those that want to learn more, passiveinvestingmastery.com, again, we’ll put it in the show notes.

Kevin Bupp:

You spend a time on your website because you just have a ton of resources and information available there for free. So Patrick, my friend, wishing you all the best here in 2025, wishing you guys just great success with all you’re doing. And we’ll look forward again to catch up here in the future. Hopefully we won’t let another year go by before we reconnect.

Patrick:

Sounds good. Same to you. Appreciate you having me on.