Alternative Investing: A Look At Litigation Funding

Transcript

Patrick Grimes:
Honolulu. We got here during COVID, getting away from the miserable quarantine and curfew and fires in California, and we’ve just gotten addicted to it and now we come here every year.

Felecia Froe:
Really? I actually lived in Honolulu for four and a half years, a while ago, it’s been a while, but I loved it so much. We lived in Oahu, Hawaii Kai, on Diamond Head actually for a little while, close to over in that area. I loved it so much. It is my dream to come back.

Patrick Grimes:
Wow. Well, my wife’s too, and that’s why we keep coming back for the summers every year.

Felecia Froe:
Nice.

Patrick Grimes:
And I’m right in the middle of Waikiki in Honolulu with the… You can see the mountains maybe behind me, but the waves, there’s about 500 surfers coming in on one wave right now, right in front of me. But I reserve that view for me.

Felecia Froe:
I love it. That is what I love so much about it, it’s just the ocean is my place. Anyway, so I introduced you, we’ve talked about… I introduced the passive income and all those things, but I want to start a little before that in your life into how you grew up with money and how you got to where you are now thinking about money.

Patrick Grimes:
Sure, well, I actually come from… Both my grandparents at one point were pastors. My father at one point was a pastor. I didn’t come from money, I came from hardworking individuals. In fact, my dad has three PhDs, so we came from more education and academics and faith-based upbringing, more so than it was learning how to… But I became an engineer as a kid. I didn’t even know what it was, but I was taking apart VCRs, if you remember what those things were. I was building little electronics and Legos, and then I started getting into programming and websites, and junior high and high school I was really early in when you did 13 cents a minute on CompuServe and AOL to try and get internet. I was in there burning up my parents’ wallet, but I got into engineering in college.

The first engineering job I got, I was doing well. The owner said, “Hey look, invest your money in real estate. Don’t invest it in high-tech.” And I’m like, “What?” This is like a titan in the high-tech space and we’re doing machine design automation and robotics projects for the Googles, the Facebooks, the Intels, the Raytheons, the Johnson and Johnsons, Lockheeds, Tesla. I did a robotic cell assembly for their motor. I was doing some of the coolest projects for some of the coolest companies, and he’s saying my only regret was not investing more into real estate sooner. And so that had a big impact on me. Now I went ahead. [inaudible 00:02:55] engineer. I didn’t understand risk, didn’t understand speculation versus investing. I lost everything in 2009 and 10 because I just got super heavily leveraged and very risky deals and development. I did it wrong, but I failed early. So I was humbled and since then I’ve done fairly well.

Felecia Froe:
So you listened to him when he said, “Invest in real estate, don’t invest in this high-tech stuff,” and that was all you needed to get you going there?

Patrick Grimes:
Yeah, easy street from then on.

Felecia Froe:
You and I lost at the same time, by the way, because it was just like you think you know everything and then you learn all the things you didn’t know, and it’s like, okay, well that hurt. Let’s get back up on that and go again. So after that, tell me, I know you started in single family houses, how have you gotten to where you are now? And actually I guess I want to know how you actually think about money? Before you start talking about that, what is your thought process when it comes to money?

Patrick Grimes:
So the message that I got really back then was that if you invest right, you can produce the family for yourself, you can produce the life for yourself and family that you would want, which is more financial security and abundance. And to be able to contribute towards the causes, whether it be your family, friends and hobbies. And that’s really still our mission today. And so I think about investments as really as building a basis, a strong foundation for a resilient portfolio that can allow you to get past the survival mode. Obviously it can allow you to get past this false notion of financial security where you’re just covering your costs, financial freedom and get to a financial security to a financial abundance. In order to do that it’s not about what you make it’s about what you keep. And for that you really need to constantly be in this journey, which is why we have an alternative investing series constantly educating on new asset classes because you have to undergo this journey where you begin to diversify in a way that is recession resilient.

That doesn’t mean a bunch of different stocks in the stock market. It doesn’t mean a bunch of different stocks in real estate. Those don’t go up and down at the same time. We call it non-correlated, but it means allocating into a lot of different places. So you have true recession resilience and to a lot of different markets which are run by different fundamentals. And so I think about those in order to give myself and my family the ability to sleep at night knowing something crashes, we’re going to be fine. I’ve lost it all once being over indexed in two things. I want to be indexed now and lots so that we can have the location freedom like we have today.

We can take jobs that allow us to work remotely like right now. I don’t have to be doing this right now, but I like to give back. In fact, before I wrote the book that I worked on with your daughter actually, which she’s wonderful and I just enjoy her so much. As my first time getting my name, even out there, I was an engineer, underwriting by myself. Now we get that opportunity to give back and to create, spend time with the family. But that was all because I focused on diversification in a well-balanced portfolio early.

Felecia Froe:
So you started investing on your own for yourself and your family, is that how that started?

Patrick Grimes:
Yeah, so when I started investing, it was all my own money and eventually I turned a business into it.

Felecia Froe:
So how did your mind… So we’re talking to professional folks out there who grew up saying their parents. If they were like mine said grow, get a job, go to school, get a job, stay in that job, do that thing. How did your mind, it sounds like you had the same, the mechanical engineer. How did an engineer down this path of engineering turn into the real estate and alternative investor that you are? Do you remember what clicked in your mind or how that happened? I think a lot of people miss that they don’t get that jump. Does that make sense?

Patrick Grimes:
Yeah. Well, so going back to the typical investor journey, it was similar for me as it is for others. I was putting everything in that 401K IRA and thinking that’s it. And then I had a surplus and I was like, “Well, okay, if I max out an IRA, then what do I do?” And then I realized that there’s alternatives and I wasn’t… My eyes were open until that’s actually what produced security. So I started thinking, well, I don’t just want to just have enough for retirement, which is, and I worked till I die, IRA 401k, now I want to think about retiring early and having abundance. So then I started let’s do a side gig, which was real estate that caused me to lose it all. It took after coming back to it, I started researching about how the wealthy invest and look and measuring risk more in a portfolio.

And I started thinking, well, I need to buy more stabilized income producing assets, tortoise not the hare. And I started looking at a lot of different asset classes. It turns out that the breadcrumbs of the wealth led me back to real estate to an allocation in real estate, usually around 20%, 26%, 30%. And so that’s what got me back into real estate, but completely differently focusing on long-term growth. And that’s what I didn’t do. I was gambling on pre-development, high risk, high reward, not the long-term throw. And then immediately, once I had success there, I started realizing, well, you know what? I’m over indexed in real estate and I lost it all before real estate before. I’m probably going to be able to ride out another downturn, but I’ve got a lot in the stock market, a lot in real estate. What do I do?

And if you look at the numbers, like I said, 25% to 30% in real estate, I was way over. When you get really comfortable with something, you tend to get way over index in that one thing. So growth happens. So we started doing energy and oil and gas. Well, you have to have a stomach for that. It’s not necessarily lower risk, but it’s not correlated, meaning it’s not going to ride the same trend. In fact, my family collects some royalties, modest royalties from generationally, that provides generational income. It is a great way to go. But then we did other things that are completely non-correlated. Like we have a litigation fund right now, which is helping provide access to justice for those that were harmed by corporate misconduct. But the litigation, but legal services is super steady, tried and true. It’s an industry like healthcare and education you can invest in and it just steadily grows.

It’s very stable, interesting. So if you can get access to those kinds of things and you put more into those kinds, another mental shift, now you have to grow, you have to learn about these new asset classes, but it’s through this lesser known non-correlated or lesser known alternatives that you can get more stability and more comfort in your portfolio. And I think that’s that shift that happens when people go from scarcity to surplus to diversification. They realize true resilience and then building a legacy means surviving and thriving in downturns means recession resilient, non-correlated diversification. So that’s what got me to where I’m at today.

Felecia Froe:
Gotcha. And it took how many years for you to do to get to that thought process? I just want everybody to know this doesn’t happen overnight. This is a process of getting there.

Patrick Grimes:
So my first investment in real estate was 2007, 08, and I didn’t leave high-tech. I became a contractor at one point so that I could do more real estate because you can’t really moonlight. I actually had to take a break from single family. It’s a big ruse. This whole flipper thing is a big ruse. I mean I was producing great income, but I was sacrificing all my time away from family, friends and hobbies. And so I had to convert to a contractor and then get into larger syndications before I could balance, find that balance. So it was a lot of journeys and I talk about it in the book and I’ll give a copy of the book away for free at the end, which has me and your daughter in it. But that story’s all there. People are interested in hearing it.

Felecia Froe:
That’s great. That’s really, really important stuff you guys about we start our journey and it may not be where you end up and there’s a bunch of icky that happens in the middle and a bunch of great that happens in the middle and you just keep going until you find your place. And Patrick’s found his place in the alternative. He doesn’t talk just about real estate. I hope you catch that. It’s not just real estate, it’s alternative investing, non-correlated. I’m going to have you just go ahead and just tell him them again what non-correlated means.

Patrick Grimes:
Yeah, it’s when something doesn’t rise and fall together. Very simple understanding of this would be gold and the US dollar. When US dollar suffers, gold is high because people are going to that safe haven and then the opposite and it’s very, very inversely correlated. So it is correlated but an inverse way. And you have a fairly sophisticated listenership, but it just means that people are in the stock market. It’s all sentiment driven, right? It’s all sentiment driven by this. It’s correlated by the overall sentiment of what things are trading at, driven by what people feel, which means that even though real estate is traded in the stock market through REITs, real estate stocks trend precisely with the stock market. So while real estate REITs are a different asset class, their real estate REITs are correlated with the stock market because they go up and down now, however, real ownership in real estate through buying something or through investing in a syndication, those do not rise and fall on the same trends.

And so you have more resilience. Your whole portfolio is not down all at once. And the challenge is getting that non-correlation and getting a return because you can look up non-correlated hedge funds, non-correlated index funds, but they basically hedge you down and you get nothing. And the benefit of things like real estate or very specifically chosen oil and gas investments or investments in the medical industry like receivables or investments in litigation services or legal services such as litigation funding, provide really good returns, portfolio growth while providing you protection of your portfolio through additional market cycles being added, right? Where you start to see growth even in downturns.

Felecia Froe:
So you guys, I hope you’re hearing this, the alternative investments. It’s not just real estate. I think Patrick just talked about a litigation fund. He talked about medical receivables or accounts receivables investing. There’s a lot of different alternative type things. It is not just about real estate and having someone on your team, Patrick Grimes, to help you understand all these potentials, all these different possible ways are to invest for returns, to keep that un-correlation or non-correlation in your portfolio is the way to really, really build that wealth. To really get that abundance that we’re all looking for. Not just the I want to get out of medicine or I want to get out of legal, I want to stop doing that. That’s the first step and now we’re going further and further away and getting further and further and better and better so that you can do the things you want to do with your family. Plus give back the way Patrick’s also talking about. You brought up litigation fund a few times. I’ve read about it in your bio. Explain it to us please.

Patrick Grimes:
Sure. And if your audience are medical doctors, then they’re going to resonate with this because they understand what happens. But from a high level perspective, litigation funding’s been going on in America for centuries. 1910 was the first case of litigation funding in America and it’s thousands of years in Australia and England and other developed countries. But it’s when a bunch of people got together and said, “Hey, you know what? These cigarettes that we’ve been smoking, maybe they’re not good for us like these companies say they are. Maybe they’re actually causing all these illnesses.” But these people that were harmed by this with the illnesses, they didn’t have the funds to go up against big bag tobacco. And so they needed help. The attorneys couldn’t afford to do everything pro bono for free. They could do it on contingency based on getting a portion of the proceeds at the ward or settlement, but they couldn’t do it in such a way that they would not get paid.

So they needed third parties to come in. They needed third parties to participate in this funding. And so that’s what it is. It’s when a third party gets involved. And what’s really cool about it, the diversified litigation portfolio provides an opportunity to participate in the settlements returns derived from settlements of thousands of cases of thousands of lawsuits. Our target are those cases where people have been harmed by very big, bad mean corporate misconduct. And so it’s a way to get a really great return on par with real estate completely non-correlated to, doesn’t matter what else is going on in the broader markets and also do some good.

Felecia Froe:
So what I’m hearing is you raise money or you have money, let’s say that just magically appeared. You have the funds and then how does that… You look for a case? Tell me how that whole, the fund works itself. I’ll stop there. [inaudible 00:17:06] Question ask.

Patrick Grimes:
Yeah. So it’s very analogous to… At our company we also buy commercial real estate. We have an opportunistic fund we’re buying in cash. We also have a debt fund where we’re providing loans to real estate operators, and that’s a loan pool. It’s very similar to those. It’s just a different industry. We’re originating loans to attorneys instead of originating loans to real estate operators. These attorneys have a long track record experience.

They have existing assets. They’re not real property, but they’re real corporate assets. These are the agreements they have place with the harmed individuals that they’ll participate in the settlement for a certain amount and they’ll put up the collateral, which are these real assets which can be valued just like how real estate can be valued. And then we lend a modest loan to value 10%, 20%, 30% against that collateral value. Just like how you lend a modest amount in real estate.

The difference is in litigation funding, instead of getting fixed principle and interest, in real estate we lend, but we get a preferred return on our capital. So we get our capital back before the borrower gets anything plus a return, and then they only begin to return as they outperform. So it’s actually we get to participate in the upside in litigation funding. So it’s a little more equity like in the return structure than it is just principal and interest in real estate. But it is very much in all their aspects the loan portfolio that we diversify across a lot of very late stage cases that are very near settlement and an insurance carrier, a rated insurance carriers will even insure these assets, these corporate assets that these attorneys have, just like how they’ll insure buildings.

Felecia Froe:
Got it. So the attorney is putting up the collateral for the loan, whatever that is, and that your company looks at it, decides it’s valued at whatever they’re saying that’s valued at, and then loan against that so that if they default, this collateral is there to make everybody whole?

Patrick Grimes:
Yeah, it’s a little different in that in real estate sometimes they’ll defer payments in real estate for a while, they’ll deference or they’ll have principal and interest cashflow coming in. This is not that because inherently the asset doesn’t cashflow inherently they don’t cashflow until the end. So it’s not a cashflow play, it’s recession resilient growth. And although there’s thousands of cases, so it can look a little bit like there’s cashflow coming in, but it’s not inherently cashflow. It’s thousands of exits happening within a portfolio. So we don’t collect interest payments, we don’t collect principal payments along the way. We defer that until settlement. But if they were to default, very similar loan. We have valuation specialists, third party that come in and value it. We have attorneys that create the contracts just like we do in our debt funds and our acquisitions funds. And those turn, all the same.

Keep in mind, litigation or legal services is 800 billion dollar industry. We’re talking on the same order of the airline industry. That’s how big it is. The cost of a mass tort, which is aggregated, this type of law, it’s like 400 billion dollars. Very sophisticated industry. So we have attorneys that have spent, done hundreds and thousands of these agreements, just like in real estate, it put together the terms that this is how you get paid, this is how the money flows into these accounts dedicated that are controlled. And we have control over the collateral. Like you said, if you default or some bad boy carve out, just like there aren’t real estate, it’s all the same stuff just in a different industry.

Felecia Froe:
It’s so interesting. This is my first time hearing this, you guys, if it’s your first time, we’ll all listen to this again so it makes sense. It makes sense. It’s just different right now I’m thinking all these commercials you see on TV would think if you got ovarian cancer from Johnson Johnson Talc, whatever, if you got whatever from whatever, those may be, attorneys who are getting loans to finish their case from a fund like yours. Am I tracking that properly?

Patrick Grimes:
Yeah, yeah. So the talcum powder is part of the dockets we’re currently evaluating to a couple attorneys, the J&J talc case where we are intending in the subsequent tranches to advance funds to attorneys in support of both helping to fund the existing clients that they have to get across to those settlements as well as fund advanced proceeds to help fund them, continue to attract new individuals that were harmed. That plus just the Camp Lagoon water contamination. Have you heard of that one? I mean 17 years the DOJ knew that they were serving contaminated water to our marine base civilians, military families, kids now suffering horrific deaths. And they were exposed needlessly for 17 years. There’s a law passed now like Republicans and Democrats said, yes, the DOJ is guilty. Here’s an endless fund that we’ll put up and here’s a grid saying, here’s your settlement.

We’re advancing capital to help at this point, that one’s ending. So we’re very late stage to help get those people across the finish line because these attorneys have been gone for 5, 6, 7 years and they need that capital to finish this and to give access to justice for those who otherwise wouldn’t have it because they can’t afford the hourly rate of the attorneys. We’re also doing firefighter foam, those forever chemicals, the PFOA firefighter foam causing non Hopkins lymphoma. And our military and civilian firefighters, 3M knew and DuPont knew in the seventies that this was causing cancer and these products kept getting created. So those guys, there’s actually, aside from going after 3M, there’s actually also a law proposed to provide an additional avenue, and that actually has a million dollars per firefighter in it that was suffered as a result. So these are really high profile, very late stage.

Another big one is Roundup, like the hardest working people in our country, bathing essentially in spring roundup across these fields, told by Monsanto that it was not harmful. And the EPA, they even lobbied. Monsanto even lobbied the EPA. The EPA submitted reports that were false. And the EPA has now retracted those reports and Monsantos had to deal with actually paying a compensatory and punitive meaning punishing damages. And so we Roundup claims are also part of the tort as well. And there’s sexual assault, medical malpractice. There’s a couple aspects to it where we don’t do frivolous things. We do things that are very clear and we have an impact investing in an ESG slide where we’re clearly carving out, we’re not ambulance chasers.

We’re doing things where a big, bad evildoer has done something and we’re helping to make a better impact. Just like in our real estate deals, how we say we not only provide a good return, but a cleaner, safer and improved living experience for our residents. And it’s on our slide decks. We’re trying to make a good impact to our investors, to our attorneys, and to the borrowers and to who we’re serving. We’re putting access to justice just like how in real estate you house tenants, we want to make sure we’re serving those people.

Felecia Froe:
If I invest in your litigation fund, is there within that some wording, some way I know that it’s not ever going to be into this frivolous stuff and the things that I was like, “Oh my gosh, you’re wasting my time with this lawsuit thing.” Can we be assured that the fund never changes to something like that?

Patrick Grimes:
I don’t think there’s a legal definition of frivolous lawsuit though. I don’t know how that would even be possible to be clear, but we put it in our slide deck. We either say that there are cases in which there is no ESG impact investing component to it’s just settling up on a dispute. Or there are cases in which there are ESG impact very clear and it’s the majority of the cases that we’ve listed currently in the fund are all that. But I don’t know how it’s possible to do what you’re suggesting.

Felecia Froe:
I don’t need. Just a thought come through my mind. How do I… Okay, so for this one, you invest in a fund and then your folks who are running that fund or in charge of that, then decide where that going to be going specifically. I can’t invest specifically in a particular lawsuit. Let me just put it that way. I know that’s not what-

Patrick Grimes:
Yeah, it has occurred to me. My wife, she does feature linked animated film producing, it’s her profession and passion projects. She’s worked for Disney Dreamworks in a Nickelodeon on some pretty awesome films and she has worked with some other individuals to raise capital for human trafficking. And I have talked to some of the organizations about setting up a specific, what we call a parallel vehicle where some organizations just really want to fight a specific cause. And while our fund is sure it gives great returns and sure it does great things, but we are serving investors, it does give great returns and we won’t take on cases unless it’s a win for the borrower, the claimant, and the investor. So that limits our pool.

But at the end of the day, what you’re saying is true that there are individuals that were like, “Well, you know what? We have this big mandate just to invest for such and such.” And specifically the one that’s come up is the sexual survivor, sexual assault, sexual abuse and human trafficking. And there’s little nuances behind what people mean by those, but some of the most powerful ones have been that we’ve seen and are exposed to are when you basically in order to tackle this, go out of this billion dollar human trafficking industry here in America, you can’t just go after the evildoers.

You have to go after the whole supply chain similar to who is enabling it, similar to how you go after the war on drugs, who are the people that allowing this to happen? And so it’s interesting because through discovery and some of these lawsuits, you can see how some of these major hotel chains knew exactly what was happening. They’re enabling and allowing this to occur. Also, these large, some of the larger organizations, which you may have heard of, which I’m actually a promoter of the organization, so I don’t like to mention it, but a lot of these larger organizations knew that this was happening, but there was an intent to cover it up instead of fix the systemic issue in their organization. And in those cases, in order to fight that level of corporate misconduct, you have to go after the entire supply chain, the supporting industries, and you have to go after the larger organizations to create the shifts. The famous example is the Catholic Church, they just moved the priest around and they never actually fixed, and we’re not obviously going up church, but that’s a famous example, right?

Felecia Froe:
That’s an example, yes.

Patrick Grimes:
Yeah. So that is one that we’ve looked at setting up what we call a parallel vehicle or a side vehicle where it is purely a special purpose for organizations which we have connections with and certainly we could do others to specifically go after, which it turns out actually produces very great returns to the investor while enabling those who want to spend the time to go after these resources to do so.

Felecia Froe:
Yeah, this is amazing. I mean truly, truly alternative, I’ve never heard of the litigation type fund at all. That’s truly giving your money a mission. If something really speaks to you and I mean to me, I could talk to you about this for a long time just because I’m starting to get an understanding of what’s going on, but that’s an amazing, amazing thing. I want to back up though, because I’m going to go back to real estate because a lot of my folks are still are looking at getting into real estate investing and our personalities as physician makes us want to control everything.

And so many that I start talking to want to buy their property, they want to manage their property, they want to, they’re going into it longterm. They want to be everything for that property, very, very active while they’re still having their other job that they’re doing that’s giving them the income that they need to support the other things we’re doing. Can you talk about that? I have my feelings about that whole thing. Both of us went through that single family house and all that stuff in the seven, eight, nines, 2000. What are your thoughts on active versus if passive invest houses, get straight into it?

Patrick Grimes:
I have three or four Forbes articles that I’ve written. I read about a dozen articles in Forbes where I talk about a lot of these aspects, the asset protection component, the time component, the benefits of scale of partnering and the drawbacks. So I could do, and I’d be happy to come on to another podcast with you and just talk about this. So at the end of this I’ll give you a link to… I get a signed copy hard shell or a soft book, but not electronic or an actual copy of the book that I sign and send. It tells my whole story of my ebbs and flows. But really what happens to me all the time is people call me and they’re like, “Hey, I have a hard time giving up control.” And it happens to be that often those people who are very successful at doing something very difficult, such as doctors or attorneys, they are like, “Well, you know what? I’ve spent as they say 8,000 hours getting mastery and whatever I’m in, I can do that again.”

But they don’t realize how hard med school was and they don’t remember. And they don’t realize that, oh, it’s not as easy. It’s not as difficult as that. Well, it really is. And what I realized was even though I felt like I was a freaking brilliant genius for the crazy techie projects I was doing with some people that were way smarter than me, I lost my shirt. The first time I lost my shirt big time. I was humbled. And then the second time I lost my life. In fact, I was moonlighting.

It was working. I was growing this single family portfolio and I had to do it in recession resilient markets. Now I knew I needed to be in Houston. I couldn’t do it nearby me because it just was too risky. I needed to be in landlord friendly locations and I needed to be diversified and trying to make all that work at afar and trying to compete against the next guy that’s full-time and has been doing it for 20 years, all of a sudden I realized I had to stop doing it just to get married. Now it was working and those did succeed but at what cost?

Felecia Froe:
Yes. Yes.

Patrick Grimes:
And I was tired and people don’t realize that also going about it and doing it yourself, especially in single family. Type in Patrick Grimes, Asset Protection, Forbes, I read a whole article that while it’s glamorized on TV, you can get in, make a quick buck, 10, 20, 30 grand, you can do the flip or whatever. People don’t realize that in those assets you’re personally guaranteeing you’re in a liable position to get sued even if… It’s very difficult to get lending. It’s almost impossible to do this through your IRA account. It’s very, very tough. So there’s a huge asset component issue or asset protection issue associated with this and there’s a velocity to capital issue. And the trap you run into is I can do it myself, I can do it myself. And then you do it once and then you forget that every year you hold that asset, your IRR goes down, your return goes down because you’re not keeping the velocity capital high and you’re still bragging about, oh, I got that one deal, but you didn’t get another one and you didn’t get another one.

You didn’t get another one. Why? Because you’re not a real estate operator. You’re a professional making your money somewhere else. And so that’s when I learned. When I got married, Beijing on a horse and my wife has a red dress with a phoenix on it and I was with a bow and arrow and we did all that. Two and a half years later, I learned to partner, I learned the skillset necessary to partner and for the first time I started working with others and other markets, other assets, and that was when things began to scale. I had a balance in my life that was healthy.

Felecia Froe:
I think that’s the key is getting that balance because we could all, everybody out there smart enough to start investing in real estate on your own, using your own money, managing it, so you’re smart enough to do it. But having the rest of your life and keeping everything in balance is the key to me. Just like what you just said, it can get really out of hand and then when you’re all focused in this one thing, these single family houses and spending all your time with that, you don’t learn about all the other alternative investments. That’s number one. Number two, that velocity of money. Money is meant to move, not sit in one place and hang out there. You’d miss out on being able to buy those next things when you’re so focused and intent on that one property that you have. So I think Patrick and I are both in this.

We both agree on the less, the passive investing when you still have your job, unless you’re going all in and you’re diving into the deep end and you’re going to go. Passive to me, investing. And passive doesn’t mean you don’t know. You got to know. It’s not the same as putting your money in your 401k and you don’t have no idea what’s happening there or very little idea of what’s happening there. This is less passive than that. I’m sorry. Yes. Less passive than that because you do spend some time getting to know the person you’re giving your money to. You’re going to invest with Patrick, you’re going to invest with Felicia, a person whose phone number should be in your phone.
Anyway, this is key to me. I love it. I love it. I love it. You wrote a book with my daughter, Takara, and you have a webinar that is regularly, it’s on my calendar. I unfortunately have not made it to one yet. That talks about all kinds of alternative investments. Your next one is about crypto. So there’s all kinds of things that Patrick is teaching us about investing in alternative things. I want people to get on your email list so they can get your stuff. I want them to get your book if you’ve got that to give away. Tell us how we can reach you and how we can learn more and more about you and the funds and the things that you’re doing.

Patrick Grimes:
Sure. So Passive Investing Mastery all spelled out, passiveinvestingmastery.com is our website and at the top of that page, you’re going to see our income funds that fund the acquisitions fund buying commercial real estate. Both are opportunistic investments, taking advantage of the downturn of commercial real estate. Really cool. Then we have the litigation portfolio, diversified litigation portfolio. It’s perfect for those that are over indexed in real estate stock market at a time when we have a Fed rate hike and 11 out of less, 14 of those ended in a recession. While real estate’s down right now, it’s time to diversify today more than ever. And so if you’re interested, there’s also, we can set a meeting up with me either way. If you go to passiveinvestingmastery.com and the secret link is slash book.

Passiveinvestingmastery.com/book and it is Persistence, Pivots And Game Changers, Turning Challenges Into Opportunities. This was such a fun project because I got to work on, it’s Takara and there’s like Phil Collen, Lead guitarists, Def Leppard, there’s NFL, NBA players, Real Estate guys, just such an incredible group. It was the first time that I got out there and told my whole story, and it’s such a small world because I actually didn’t know that you were Takara’s mom until we started this podcast, until the intro, but I had such a wonderful time doing this and all these other people, if it’s an inspiration to you, that’s enough of a gift for me.

As a give back, I sign them, we send them out. Just make sure that money with a mission is in the promo code for it because we don’t just send them out randomly. So we got to know where you came from. We may reach out if you don’t say anything, but either way, set up a call wherever you’re at in your career. Part of what I love to do is just meet people, assess what they’re doing and see if I can get you pointed in the right direction and if we’re a stop along that way, that’s great.

Felecia Froe:
Perfect. You guys, I know most people are driving, walking, doing something other than writing down what Patrick just said about how to reach him. It is going to be in the show notes. So go there, get that book, you’ll enjoy it. Everybody in that book is, all the stories are inspiring. So when you’re having your down day, grab the book, read about somebody else’s life and how they overcame what they overcame, and we all go through it and sometimes it feels like you’re so alone. Having that kind of information, having those kinds of stories with you can really help get you over that hump. It certainly has helped me. Patrick, thank you so much. Enjoy the rest of your time in Hawaii. I’m jealous. I’m going to admit it, real jealous. Yeah, I’m really excited. We talked about a lot of stuff and I think there’s a lot more to talk about. I’m really excited to learn more about everything you’re doing. Thank you so much.

Patrick Grimes:
Wonderful to meet you and thanks for having me on.

Felecia Froe:
Appreciate it.